ATSC hand held TV

[wb4jfi at knology.net]

No dogs, my only point regarding IBOC was that it's changeover a total mess, 
and has not successfully transitioned to digital, unlike TV broadcast.  8VSB 
has some issues, but the transition was completed.  Not so with digital 
radio.  I have heard about the adjacent channel problems with IBOC, along 
with some co-channel interference issues.  Those problems would not be 
nearly as important if the ANALOG radio transmissions had ceased.  You would 
NOT still have mostly analog radios around your house to receive 
interference from IBOC, if those analog stations had ceased to exist.  The 
real issue is that the HD Radio transition is stuck, and not moving forward 
to a close.  And, I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.  After 
all, it can be hard to pick up an HD Radio signal with a diode detector!

The DTV transition timeline was forced upon us, particularly so the FCC 
could recover spectrum.  With RADIO being In-Band, On-Channel, there was 
never any push to recover spectrum, therefore never any push to have an end 
to the transition.  The FCC said "Let the Market Decide", and it hasn't... 
or maybe it has.  As you pointed out, these days HD Radios can be difficult 
to find.  That may be the answer in itself!

I'm not sure why you can't pick up any DTV signals, if you could pick up 
analog TV signals.  Was the analog picture good quality?  If so, you should 
be able to get at least some DTV signals.  What type of DTV receiver do you 
have?  Antenna & transmission line system?  The same antenna should work for 
analog or digital signals.  I'm guessing that you are north of DC, so one 
antenna that gets DC, Baltimore, and the other markets you mentioned must 
not be all that directional/good.  Have you tried to move or rotate the 
antenna at all?  Here in Charleston, SC, I am MANY miles from the DTV 
transmitters (they are north of city by quite a bit, and I am south-west of 
downtown).  They are UHF, and I can receive them on a telescoping whip with 
a portable DTV receiver that cost $80 at CVS.  I have use that system 
several times during potential weather emergencies.  They do call this the 
"Low Country" for a reason.

It seems like your dog in the hunt is that whomever chose a digital 
transmission system (either for radio or TV), chose the wrong one.  And they 
are idiots.  Based on my experience with the DTV transition, I totally 
disagree regarding it's changeover.  HD Radio is a totally different animal, 
with different market pressure points (or lack thereof).

Tacos may not be the best place for this discussion, I don't know.  Saying 
people are idiots or ideas are stupid does not enlighten the listening crowd 
about the technical success or failures of this system or that.  As with any 
technical decision, there will be winners and there will be losers.  I guess 
(based on your stated experiences) you are on the losing end of both of 
these.  Sorry for your loss.
Terry, WB4JFI


-----Original Message----- 
From: Chip Fetrow
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 11:01 PM
To: wb4jfi at knology.net
Cc: tacos at amrad.org
Subject: Re: ATSC hand held TV

You seem to think I have a dog in that hunt.  I don’t.  I think IBAC is a 
stupid idea, and just causes interference, and with no real  benefits.

On AM, IBAC just rips up the first adjacent, and to a lesser extent, the 
second adjacent.  I find it pretty funny when big companies interfere with 
their own statins in distant markets at night.  Thankfully, many are waking 
up to that problem and at minimum, turning it off at night.

The data rate on AM is far too low to have any kind of fidelity, especially 
since iBiquity didn’t bother to license a decent CODEC.  FM is nearly as 
bad, especially when the data is so sliced up as to have two to four so 
called HD streams.

Around my house, I mostly have analog tuned radios.  It is amazing the noise 
in the sidebands on FM.  It is dreadful, and on several of my radios I hear 
it when center tuned!  It is just a really bad idea.

Sadly, at least on FM, it isn’t going away.  CPB has dumped a lot of money 
into equipping NPR stations to “HD.”

You would think iBiquity would know how to market “HD” Radio, but they don’t. 
They CLAIM to have spent millions or even billions of Dollars promoting it. 
They haven’t.  All that has been done is that “HD” stations have dropped in 
“HD” spots in place of unsold inventory.  It cost them nothing.  Even with 
all that promotion, try walking into Best Buy or Cell Phone Shack and buying 
an “HD” radio.  I was finally able to buy one at Radio — er, Cell Phone 
Shack, but I had to look it up on-line, prove to them they had several and 
find it for myself.

I have only found one sales person who knew what it is, at  Cell Phone Shack 
in Kent, Washington.  He told me all about it, and how little of it was 
actually on the air in the Seattle market.  I took him out to my van and 
showed him a complete FM analog/HD radio station, audio automation through 
coax, but no antennas since the tower guy had them.  He was not impressed. 
Not enough bouncing meters and flashing lights.  My rented van spent a week 
on a mountain top near Seattle so we could drive test the signal.  I had to 
baby-sit it all night as we (by law) had to man the studio and transmitter 
or control point, and we had no separate studio or remote control point. 
Kind of funny, in a sick sort of way.

OH, and I get about 60 or even more analog stations at my house.  Ask me how 
many so called HD stations I can receive.  NONE!  HD is a bust.


On the other hand, I think you have missed something pretty key.  Nearly 
every car comes with a satellite receiver, or is satellite ready, and they 
come with HD.  It doesn’t work well, and many BMW dealers have been forced 
to swap out Blaupunkt radios which automatically default to HD, and it has 
to be turned off each time you start the car or change radios, but the 
radios have gotten to be more user friendly, and work better.

In the NE US, Southern California and Chicago area, many or most FMs are 
short spaced, so when the FCC allowed power increases for iBiquity most 
stations in those areas did not get power increases, though some did in one 
sideband.

Ask me why I call it IBAC.  It is not In Band On Channel, it became and is 
In Band ADJACENT Channel.

Nope, I would rather it just go away.

Now, if the FCC and broadcasters would just cut to some real digital radio, 
that would be great, but that is never going to happen.  Remember Eureka 
147?  We could have done that, and the UK did.  They are actually shutting 
down analog transmitters.

By the way, used to receive NTSC from DC, Baltimore, weak Channel 8 from 
Harrisburg, and Channel 12 from Philadelphia.  Now, ask me what I can pick 
up using th same antennas.  No ATSC at all, only the Frankin FM from 
Arlington on Channel 6.

—chip

On Apr 28, 2014, at 9:57 PM, <wb4jfi at knology.net> <wb4jfi at knology.net> 
wrote:

> Hey, how's that RADIO digital transition coming???  Anyone selling those 
> great digital radios for your car anymore????  (Yes, I came to Gannett 
> while we still owned a significant part of the technology behind 
> "Ubiquity",  I met some of the SRI and other folks involved in that, so I 
> personally like COFDM).  How soon are the power-wasting ANALOG radio 
> transmitters going to be shut down?  IBOC anyone?