anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL support) they don't need?

Tue Mar 17 23:16:32 EDT 2020

Doing some quick googling of data sheets it looks like a Spartan-7 will
have a quiescent power consumption in the order of tens of milliwatts.
 The iCE products are in tens of microwatts.  The low end Spartan-7s use up
hundreds of mW while iCE uses tens of mW.

There are tools for computing the estimated power in the vendors
toolchains.  It depends on the size, speed and composition of logic.  I've
read that iCE products are found in cell phones.  I doubt you'd find a
Xilinx or Intel FPGA in an application like that.

BTW - There are open source tools for the Spartan-7
https://hackaday.com/2020/03/06/mithro-runs-down-open-source-fpga-toolchains/
Also Elliot Williams the author was a past HacDC preident.

--Martin

On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 8:53 AM <samudra.haque at gmail.com> wrote:

> Terry/Martin on the issue of FPGA as potential power hogs, can you give
> some real world comparison from your experience? I intend to follow the
> guidelines for a SPARTAN-7 fpga and reducing power consumption by turning
> off as much as I can. The stats published in the attached document are
> admirable nonetheless.
>
>
>
> I ordered the SEEED board (Spartan-7 FPGA dev. Board, $44.48 w/shipping)
> and got the Vivado  (free) WebPack framework installed. I also am tracking
> the XILINIX power estimator for early power budget.
> https://www.xilinx.com/video/hardware/using-the-xilinx-power-estimator.html
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Terry N4TLF <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2020 12:32 PM
> *To:* samudra.haque at gmail.com; 'Martin' <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Tacos' <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* Re: anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> MicroBlaze used to cost significant dollars to use.  PicoBlaze was the
> smaller, no-cost option.
>
>
>
> Beware of hidden costs associated with the IDE tools.  I bought one
> Xilinx-based board, where the Vivaldo license was locked to the one board,
> and for only a limited time.  Once that time expired, yu needed to purchase
> a regular license.  On the other hand, the Altera line has/had issues where
> they discontinue support for lines of FPGA chips as they update the IDE.
>
>
>
> One other point regarding FPGAs, most tend to be power hogs.
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* samudra.haque at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2020 12:12 PM
>
> *To:* 'Martin'
>
> *Cc:* 'Terry N4TLF' ; 'Tacos'
>
> *Subject:* RE: anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Hey all, I just noticed from Joel’s list this one priced economically at
> $35.90 …
> https://www.seeedstudio.com/Spartan-Edge-Accelerator-Board-p-4261.html?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=bazaar_0919&ct=t&mc_cid=2972c7f3ab&mc_eid=5f0fb45d80
>
>
>
> Looks interesting no? if treated as a standalone FPGA board – which it
> can be instead of an Arduino accessory. Any drawbacks? It’s an FPGA
> development system  I understand that. But then I read that MicroBlaze
> (Vivado) that can then host FreeRTOS.
> https://www.freertos.org/a00090.html#XILINX.
>
>
>
>
>
> So, essentially a replacement for Intel Max 10, Nios II, FreeRTOS
> combination, at a cheaper I think price, with more gates, and a development
> board that is current production with a host of documentation?
>
> http://wiki.seeedstudio.com/Spartan-Edge-Accelerator-Board/
>
>
>
> Samudra
>
>
>
> *From:* samudra.haque at gmail.com <samudra.haque at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2020 11:30 AM
> *To:* 'Martin' <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Terry N4TLF' <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>; 'Tacos' <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* RE: anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Hi, Martin, Terry – I zoomed through to try and Intel’s Quartus and the
> Nios II Embedded Development System to go through a simulated design cycle
> all the way upto a pin-out matching stage for a real processor. It included
> adding specific Verilog code to handle some simple-enough signal flow (and,
> xor, not) etc. for some of the control lines. I was able to figure out
> quickly the workflow, to synthesize and reach stages before simulation
> which included “wiring” up the section of the soft processor to the other
> soft peripherals.
>
>
>
> I obviously don’t have hardware, and the tutorial assumed all was
> available in the development board  and did not try to actually simulate
> the circuit as I wanted to evaluate how difficult the challenge of learning
> these tools were going to be – my confidence is increasing because of this.
>
>
>
> That said, another friend explained:
>
>    - FPGA
>    - FPGA + soft CPU (e.g. Soft processor core in an FPGA, perhaps many
>    of them, and the rest available for standard FPGA applications)
>    - FPGA + hard CPU (e.g. Silicon with an embedded hard processor core
>    and FPGA section on same die)
>
>
>
> My hope  is to run a FreeRTOS or uC/OS-II as supervisory operating system,
> with command/telemetry/control/sensor management roles. The FPGA would be
> for development of the all-important interfaces and logic that would change
> from project to project. Low capacity (1200 bps, 9600 bps) RF
> communications.  Absolutely target a lower power/lower capacity system.
>
>
>
> So I was wondering if I could ask your opinion on this low cost board I
> saw discussed in https://joelw.id.au/FPGA/CheapFPGADevelopmentBoards,
> from the OMTECH seller  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000323573953.html
>
>
>
> Are US equivalents available somewhere in the same price range?  It’s
> about the same price as a Intel Max10 FPGA development board (No SOC)
>
>
>
> N3RDX
>
> *From:* samudra.haque at gmail.com <samudra.haque at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 15, 2020 1:01 PM
> *To:* 'Martin' <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Terry N4TLF' <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>; 'Tacos' <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* RE: anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Thanks, I’ll have to spend time on different fpga vendor websites.
>
>
>
> *From:* Martin <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 14, 2020 7:06 PM
> *To:* Samudra Haque <samudra.haque at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Terry N4TLF <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>; Tacos <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* Re: anyone with an entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Samudra - the flowchart you posted is for the NIOS II Embedded Processor
> Design Suite not Quartus Prime Lite for FPGA and SoCs.   NIOS II is a
> fairly complex 32 bit processor that you probably would never need for an
> embedded system.
>
>
>
> If you want a complex development framework then Quartus is probably a
> good choice - it will take you weeks or months to become proficient.   Once
> proficient you can start learning a HDL and FPGA concepts.
>
>
>
> ISE Design Suite, the IDE for older low end Xilinx Spartan FPGAs like the
> Spartan 6 has been deprecated to help sales of new chips.
>
>
>
> Note that Intel/Altera makes money on IP and there's a lot of open source
> stuff available for Lattice.  I remember seeing an IDE that worked like
> gnuradio-companion and took functional blocks like filters/
> modulator/demodulator to compile for Lattice FPGAs.
>
>
>
> --Martin
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 3:12 PM <samudra.haque at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, yes, Martin, but I willing to take on a complex development
> framework during the Corona virus downtimes for the benefit it might give
> me, as I get ready to produce another piece of unique technology this year.
>
>
>
> I admit: so far without an EE formal education, but rather a CS background
> with practical hardware projects, I was 0.25 EE degree in 1989, 0.5 EE in
> 1997 when I developed broadband microwave equipment, 0.75 EE by the
> post-grad development from fundamentals to flight hardware. I wasn’t
> exposed to FPGA or DSP as I wasn’t in the EE discipline at all but I can do
> all the math.
>
>
>
> No, I don’t want to spend time in getting to work. I estimate if I had
> been educated in class in using the toolchain like what I saw in the video
> I linked, and the tutorial that I am reading through, it would have saved
> me a whole summer’s worth of heads down work that I completed in 2013 on my
> own to take the lab bench parts (see picture) using MCF5270 to the
> proto-flight board (which had different pin outs and different peripherals
> and different BSP for the RTOS) that used MCF54415 family. To get around
> the requirement the flight software be mature, I had to develop my own
> ‘abstraction’ of the pin names/signal names/register maps so that I could
> (with limited money) test between the lab version (MCF5270) and the flight
> prototype EM-1 (MCF54415) interchangeably with a runtime firmware flag
> based upon what hardware was present.
>
>
>
> Roughly this last year, I was coding BPSK modulators in C++ on my own just
> as a challenge, but I felt constrained by just programming and wanted to
> have real hardware to output a signal. Then I stumbled upon FPGA routines
> for generating carrier waves (ref:
> https://zipcpu.com/dsp/2017/07/11/simplest-sinewave-generator.html and
> http://www.andraka.com/files/crdcsrvy.pdf and it just hit me on the head:
> I was thinking 50 year old design methods:  code first and then separately
> design the mod/demod using  discrete blocks etc. etc. --
>
>
>
> *From:* Martin <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 14, 2020 5:08 PM
> *To:* Samudra Haque <samudra.haque at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Terry N4TLF <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>; Tacos <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* Re: anyone with a entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> You are making extra work for yourself going Intel or Xilinx.  Those
> design tools support a large variety of FPGAs - some of which are very
> large and complex and cost what a house goes for.  You project requires a
> small, simple FPGA.  Do you want to spend your time leaning a proprietary
> tool chain or the FPGA basics?
>
>
>
> https://hackaday.com/2019/07/05/bringing-fpga-development-to-the-masses/
>
>
>
> --Martin
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 1:37 PM <samudra.haque at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow, I am learning a lot thanks to Taco’s forums. I regret not paying
> attention to FPGA world earlier. I just sat through 30 minutes of a free
> training course on Intel’s website: and a wholesome review of a tutorial
> using the flow chart shown below – and it would I am most sure at this
> point, be easy for me to replicate my manually designed electric rocket
> subsystem (see pics from 2015) control system, into an FPGA version down to
> the 10 uS synthetic reprogrammable timebase I had to design, to validate my
> multi-rocket synchronization routines – I honestly was just paying
> attention to the physics, and not to the EE techniques then.
>
>
>
> Back then I was using Netburner hardware, and wholly customized PCB, with
> IGBT power switches and ~40 amp transient discharges from an inductive
> energy storage system I calculated manually. Well --- an FPGA containing a
> soft-core MCU, some external switches, RTOS application (the same possibly
> that I used in the RTOS of Netburner environment) and some barebones serial
> comms seem to be practical to implement with these methods, …. And I may be
> able to develop new control processes and drive other elements .. without
> much delay ! Perhaps even use the onboard NIOS II DSP section to do
> mod/demod ? BTW, I liked the training material 100 and 200 level FPGA
> courses on the intel website, free with registration. Like:
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/programmable/support/training/catalog.html?keywords=nios
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Terry N4TLF <n4tlf at wb4jfi.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 14, 2020 12:54 PM
> *To:* samudra.haque at gmail.com; 'Martin' <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Tacos' <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* Re: anyone with a entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Here are a couple of books that might be of interest regarding Verilog:
>
>
>
> This book is interesting, and a little bit different.  It doesn’t require
> actual hardware for most of it’s content.  I bought the Kindle version.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Video-Game-Hardware-Verilog-ebook/dp/B07LD48CTV/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=verilog+book&qid=1584203304&sr=8-5
>
>
>
> THe title is accurate: a Concise guide to be sure.  Again, not tied to any
> hardware, and somewhat light on details.  Fairly thin.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Verilog-Example-Concise-Introduction-Design/dp/0983497303/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=verilog+book&qid=1584203528&sr=8-1
>
>
>
> I have the Kindle version of this book.  It uses a few specific boards.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Programming-FPGAs-Getting-Started-Verilog-ebook/dp/B01M0F1L5G/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=verilog+book&qid=1584203803&sr=8-2
>
>
>
> THis is more expensive, I have the paper version.  It has the most of my
> bookmarks of any book I have.  That says it all.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Embedded-Design-Using-Programmable-Arrays/dp/1589094867/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Embedded+design+using+Programmable&qid=1584204048&sr=8-1
>
>
>
> There are several other books that I have.  Like many other technical
> references, there is not ONE single book that is best.
>
>
>
> I have used the Papilio and Digilent FPGA boards (among others) to help me
> learn most of what I have now forgotten, regarding FPGAs.  I now have some
> newer boards boards based on Zynq FPGAs, such as the Red Pitaya, a
> MicroZed, and others.  These are MUCH more powerful, but also much more
> complicated.  My brain hurts whenever I delve into them.
>
>
>
> 73, Terry, N4TLF
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* samudra.haque at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2020 8:42 PM
>
> *To:* 'Martin'
>
> *Cc:* 'Tacos'
>
> *Subject:* RE: anyone with a entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> Hi Martin, thanks for the tip. I went looking for the board you
> recommended from Lattice (it’s offered at a good price) but if I am not
> mistaken, it doesn’t have any peripherals such as switches  for onboard
> experiments? The photos show it comes with LEDs, but no switches.
>
>
>
> Then I went looking for the icestorm documentation and it seems they ship
> from UK (the blackice boards) so despite those development boards being
> chock full of accessories for experimentation, the shipping delay and cost
> sort of makes it expensive.
>
>
>
> So, randomly I searched and came across (comments requested) *for about
> $43.85 total with shipping*:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/STEP-MAX10-Intel-Altera-FPGA-development-board/143318504573?hash=item215e72d47d%3Ag%3AlcQAAOSwARpdGDCw&LH_BO=1
>
>
>
> and according to the website
> http://www.stepfpga.org/step-max10-development-board/  it is fully
> supported by:
>
>
>
> Altera MAX10 FPGA: 10M02/10M08
>
> On board USB Blaster programming circuit
>
> 2-character 7-segment display
>
> Two RGB LEDs
>
> Four switches
>
> Four push buttons
>
> Eight user LEDs
>
> Power from MicroUSB connector
>
> 40 pins DIP connector with 36 User I/Os
>
>
>
> ·        STEP-MAX10 Hardware Manual 1.0
> <https://github.com/stepfpga/STEP-MAX10/blob/master/docs/STEP-MAX10%20Hardware%20Manual%201.0.pdf>
>
> ·        STEP-MAX10 Software Manual 1.0
> <https://github.com/stepfpga/STEP-MAX10/blob/master/docs/STEP-MAX10%20Software%20Manual%201.0.pdf>
>
> ·        STEP-MAX10 Source Code
> <https://pan.baidu.com/s/1guMNzIYx2Q4sUGhQ1pSUvg>
>
> ·        STEP-MAX10 Schematic diagram
> <https://github.com/stepfpga/STEP-MAX10/blob/master/docs/STEP-MAX10%20Schematic.pdf>
>
> ·        Software&Tools <http://fpgasoftware.intel.com/?edition=pro>
>
> The software suite is … Altera (Microsoft) Quartus Prime Lite, which
> includes ModelSim for soft logic analyzer waveform output … and supports
> Verilog and VHDL. I think that could be ok for mid-level developers, right?
>
>
>
> But since the documentation says “*On board JTAG programming circuit*”,
> is an actual JTAG gadget still necessary for this device, or is that
> functionality already included somehow?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Martin <dcmk1mr2 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2020 7:26 PM
> *To:* Samudra Haque <samudra.haque at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Tacos <tacos at amrad.org>
> *Subject:* Re: anyone with a entry level FPGA development board (VHDL
> support) they don't need?
>
>
>
> You might want to take a look at
> https://www.amazon.com/LATTICE-SEMICONDUCTOR-ICE40HX1K-STICK-EVN-Evaluation-iCE40HX1K/dp/B00R3QU9K0
> for a board and do a google search for Windows iceStorm support.  The are
> more expensive FPGAs from Intel/Altera amd Xilinx but the tool chains are
> awful.
>
>
>
> You also might want to check to see if you really want to invest in VHDL
> or if Verilog might be better for your needs.  It doesn't hurt to know both
> but Verilog is more like C and is less trouble to learn.
>
>
>
> Learning to simulate is a really import skill for FPGA development so you
> can get started with that before you have hardware.
>
>
>
> 73 Martin W6MRR
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:50 PM <samudra.haque at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would like to do an experiment with an FPGA development board. I’m
> looking for something with pinouts or with a switch + LED; My experience
> with VHDL is very limited. I will be using Windows 10 for my development
> environment.
>
>
>
> If anyone has a board they don’t need, would you be willing to sell it at
> a Tippy’s Taco’s meetup to me? Send me the product manufacturer part number
> and your ask to samudra.haque at gmail.com.
>
>
>
> Also, if I had no FPGA board, is there a emulator environment that I can
> compile the code and get a testbench / diagram of the signals? At least I
> could begin coding / developing the framework right away.
>
>
>
> 73 de Samudra N3RDX
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tacos mailing list
> Tacos at amrad.org
> https://lists.amrad.org/mailman/listinfo/tacos
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tacos mailing list
> Tacos at amrad.org
> https://lists.amrad.org/mailman/listinfo/tacos
>
>
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